Mastering the Art of Press Releases: Insights from eReleases Founder Mickie Kennedy

Brent Peterson (00:01.986)
Welcome to this episode of Uncharted Entrepreneurship. Today I have Mickey Kennedy. He is the founder of eReleases. Mickey, go ahead, give us an introduction. Tell us your day-to-day role and one of your passions.

Mickie Kennedy (00:16.175)
Sure, so day to day I am mostly telling people about the educating them about the possibilities of PR and seeing 10,000 releases of our clients go out each year. I get to see what patterns are working and what types of press releases people should be focusing on and certainly what ones they should avoid. And personally, I like fossils, like...

comic books, mostly horror, horror comics from the 50s and 60s. And I also am a avid poetry writer. I went to college and pursued a Masters of Fine Arts in Creative Writing with emphasis in poetry. And from there I ended up into PR.

Brent Peterson (01:02.934)
That's awesome. I was a history major and I ended up in computers. So I'm and I have a friend who's a musician who ended up in programming. So I think that we all go to we get our liberal arts degree and and then we pursue our passion and sometimes it doesn't always. Would you like to be a full time poet? Would you have liked to be a full time poet?

Mickie Kennedy (01:24.303)
I would have liked it, but the unfortunate reality is that very few people are making enough money to, from poetry to actually do it full time. are professors or teachers. And I did teach, in graduate school and it turns out it wasn't really something that I liked. I am a shy English major and dealing with students who really didn't want to be there. It just made me.

almost, you know, resent the literature. I was like, I don't think that I want to be someone who teaches for a career. So that's, that was something I learned about myself.

Brent Peterson (02:07.928)
Do you think that's a lost art that, I just read the history of Tom Marr, he was the first governor of Montana. He was known for getting up on stage and just reciting poems in a very poetic voice. Do think that's a lost art or do think that's gonna be sort of always there?

Mickie Kennedy (02:26.691)
I think it's always going to be there, but I do think that our society doesn't really elevate it and appreciate it, you know, outside of like the laureate that is usually there, who gives a poem when the new president is inaugurated. But, you know, outside of that, we don't really have a lot of people that speak for the nation or, you know, get

you know, a spotlight on them. And that's unfortunate. In a lot of Latin American countries, for example, they revere some of their poets and, you know, they go through teaching them, the children, you know, memorize them and, you know, often at homes, not under a teacher, you know, forcing them to memorize or anything like that. So it does seem like other countries and Eastern Europe is the same way. There's a very vibrant

poetry and literature community there where, you know, even the average person, it doesn't seem, you know, weird or strange that they would want to read and recite poetry. And I do wish that people in the digital age would make a little more time, you know, for that because there is something that is very profound and wonderful that happens with poetry.

Brent Peterson (03:46.828)
Yeah, that's good. I did get a little sidetracked, so I apologize. Before we get started on content, today we're going to talk about press releases, which I'm actually excited about. And before we do that, I would just like to tell you a joke. And all I want is a rating one through five. I call it the free joke project. And it's not a poem, so we'll keep that. I should have done a poem if I would have known. Anyways, here we go.

I tried to attend a seminar for kleptomaniacs, but all the seats were taken.

Mickie Kennedy (04:21.185)
And what was the grading scale again? through five.

Brent Peterson (04:23.982)
Yes, one through five, no negatives. thank you, all right, good, all right, I'll take that. That's like halfway. Okay, so I think I said 26 years, how long has it been? 26 years since you started e-releases.

Mickie Kennedy (04:26.539)
I will give it a three.

Mickie Kennedy (04:42.536)
It was October of 1998.

Brent Peterson (04:45.39)
Tell us what, and I know press releases are still popular, but tell us about what was it like in 1998. And then to call something E, anything, is sort of ahead of its time, right?

Mickie Kennedy (04:57.517)
Right. Yeah. So, I, really was captivated with the email component. I, was going to wait tables out of graduate school and write poetry. That was going to be my career plan. And so I actually did that after I graduated. I had done part-time, waiting before that. And then I went to full time and you know, it's one thing to be on your feet for four to six hours, but now you're on your feet.

for eight to 12 hours and it really is hard on your joints. And also just the constant chaos of waiting tables and being in hospitality made it so that I wasn't reading or writing. And I just said, you know, I need to find a safe office job. And so I got hired at a telecom research startup in Washington DC, cause I was going.

finished up college, graduate school in Northern Virginia. And I was employee number three and there was a lot of things that were going on. It was very time consuming, but I loved it. And one of the things they said is, Hey, you have a writing background. I'll be creative writing, you know, write press releases and send them to the media. Here's a Rolodex of fact, facts numbers that the owner had. He was a telecom attorney.

And he was looking to step away from this business and focus on his telecom practice. And so, I did that and, know, I took instructions from, my boss and he's like, yeah, I don't expect much. And I sent the releases out and nothing much happened. And the funny thing is I just felt like, you know, when you spend half a day punching facts numbers into a fax machine,

you know, and then hit send and wait another half a day while it screeches all day. it, it really makes you want to make sure that you're producing the best content to deliver to the journalist. And so I, started reading a lot of the articles and realized that journalists love to write and story arc, even if it's a two or three paragraph article, a lot of times they will try to build a story arc into it.

Mickie Kennedy (07:21.959)
And that got me thinking that, you know, what I was sending didn't really give the ingredients for story arc. I was giving a lot of data, but not really, you know, making a lot of analysis on the data. And so, we had just sent out, a press release, with telecom traffic to and from the United States to Caribbean countries. And so I went and revisited that data.

And one of the things that jumped out at me is one of the countries at the time had more inbound and outbound telecom traffic to the United States than almost all the other countries combined. And so I did not know why and asked around and discovered that it was the hotbed of the 1-900 call centers. You know, a lot of 1-900 numbers at the time were being routed through this country. so, and for those who don't know what a 1-900 number is,

You could call a number a 1-900 number and you would get anywhere from a live person to a pre-recorded call and for like say 50 cents a minute at the time you could get your horoscope read to you or For a dollar or two you could speak to someone who would give you a love advice or advice on you know your pets behavior and It was just a way in which it was the Venmo and PayPal at the time

where you just used your phone number and it was charged to your phone bill each month. And so I sent that press release out and shared either the call center or the 1900 number element. And immediately we got picked up by the Financial Times, The Economist, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, and three telecom trade publications. And everybody was patting me on the back after that.

And I was just like, I wonder if I've discovered the secret and I continued to send releases and I continued to get us pick up. one of the things, that, that I noted was, you know, rather than looking at this year's data, started comparing it to previous years data and trying to find patterns. And one of the things we noticed is in basically what we call third world countries, or non industrialized countries, when they experienced a double digit, telecom

Mickie Kennedy (09:42.975)
traffic growth to and from industrialized countries like the United States usually three to five years later, they would start experiencing massive double digit economic growth. And so that was an indicator of, you know, potentially where you could be investing. And so when we sent out that press release and got picked up in Barron's and I think Investor's Business Daily and a couple of other places,

We started getting orders and calls from investors and hedge funds and a whole different audience and customer base. So it was very exciting. And also around that time, journalists were calling and saying, hey, instead of faxing, could you start emailing it? And I was like, yeah, certainly. And they're like, yeah, this email thing's really cool. I think it's going to stick around for a while. And so I did that. And that was the light bulb moment, you know.

press release, e-releases, email. And so I started hanging out in bulletin boards, which were also popular at the time. And that's where a lot of journalists were. I guess it was like pre-Twitter days. And I would network with journalists and start adding them to a Rolodex. So about a year later, I launched with 10,000 journalists in my database and I just played a matchmaker sending press releases.

to journalists to cover a particular beat or industry.

Brent Peterson (11:12.875)
Wow, that's an amazing story. So did you see a trend where it went from fax to email to now other ways of getting it across and then has it sort of plateaued now or?

Mickie Kennedy (11:30.809)
So there has definitely been a trend away from faxing. I think that probably by early 2000s, most people were doing email as opposed to faxing. There was also people who would utilize the newswire. In the US, we have a press release newswire, two of them, Business Wire and PR Newswire. And there are other wires you

Brent Peterson (11:37.166)
you

Mickie Kennedy (11:58.775)
certainly heard of like the Associated Press, AP, Reuters, UPI, other ones. They work differently. are not a, they don't disseminate press releases. They send out articles that they've written and they, they get paid by licensing those articles to places. So if you're the Baltimore Sun and you're getting ready leave for the day at five o'clock and the Supreme court has an announcement and you're like, gosh, we have to write that rather than.

you know, lose the next three or four hours, you could just pull the story from the Associated Press after they posted it and, know, comfortably go home and realize you can do that after hours and it won't take a considerable amount of time and you just pay a licensing fee or they might already have a subscription to the Associated Press. There are other companies out there with wire in their name and they purport to be for press releases.

But really in the United States, it's, business wire and PR news wire probably account for 97 % of, you know, the places that journalists go to and you don't have to go to both. one of them will cover it, which is the benefit of being in a duopoly. but these other players that are out there mostly focused on syndication where the press release gets replicated on other websites. And that is a big diversion. And I tell people, save your money. It's, know,

a lot cheaper than the news wires like PR Newswire or Businesswire. For example, PR Newswire charges $1,600 to move a 600 WordPress release nationally. So it is considerably expensive. But that being said, it being one of the two pawns that journalists fish from, it is important that if you have breaking news or important news that you do want to get it out there. Now, I don't send

so much by email anymore. I am fortunate that I have a partnership with PR Newswire. They reached out to me probably 10 years ago or so and said they liked what we were doing and you know, would we like to partner and they give me a city distribution for all of my customers. And I said, Nope, not interested. You know, my customers want national media attention. They don't want their local market only. And so

Mickie Kennedy (14:22.511)
They didn't run away. We continued to talk. And one of the things they brought up was that their editorial team is there overnight and they don't do very much. But in case there's breaking news or a recall or someone wants to get something to Asian markets and they have to coordinate with them, you know, they have to be there. And so I just said, Hey, I could start scheduling all my press releases for the next business day by default. And you could, you know, then

format them and set them up on the wire overnight. And it wouldn't cost you any additional labor because you've got labor overnight that you're just not utilizing because you don't have work. And so, they were able to come back and give me a really good price. And today, every press release that he releases issues goes out nationally over PR news wire. And the cost is probably like a third to at most half the price of the news wire. So it is a.

substantial savings. being said, we do have some caveats that, you know, publicly traded companies and really large companies that PR Newswire sells people would be interacting with. We have to sort of steer clear of them, but that's fine because we mostly work with startups and entrepreneurs. And we do work with about a third of the people that appear on Shark Tank. The producers of the show recommend that they do a press release before their episode airs.

They recommend us as well. So that's been really exciting to be able to work with that class of customer.

Brent Peterson (15:55.638)
That goes into my next sort of question. For an entrepreneur, is a press release still relevant today? And how would you recommend they get into doing it?

Mickie Kennedy (16:10.327)
Right. So a lot of people will come to us at e-releases with a press release they've already written and they're looking to disseminate it. And so they choose us and it goes out and I'll be honest, probably nothing happens. Probably 97 % of the time. That's a really strong metric. would say 97 % of most press releases do not generate earned media. know, given that it's like, why do I bother?

But the truth is that I get to see about 10,000 press releases go out each year. our customers are prime examples of probably what not to do. Because when many of them come to you with a press release already written, they don't want to take your advice. But I do have education that I provide because I look at the 3 % of press releases that do get earned media. And there are lots of patterns. For example,

you know, we get a lot of product launch press releases that he releases and that should be newsworthy. but often it is here's a new product. Here's a list of features. Sometimes they're bulleted. Sometimes they're just sentences. but it's here's the product, here's the features and here, is a page to learn more or buy it. And again, I mentioned already that journalists like to follow a story arc. There's not a lot of story there.

And so what are the first things that you can do is go back in there and incorporate a story. So I'm sure that your product or service or whatever it is that you're announcing, wasn't created in a vacuum. People tried it out. People used it, share one of those experiences, a use case study, you know, company X was experiencing a 7%, loss annually and they utilized our logistics software solution.

And at the end of 90 days, they were forecasting a 7 % net profit. And so that's a pretty substantial turnaround. And then, you know, get a quote by them, have them say something favorable, either about the software or how they used it or the transformation, you know, and, and sort of try to, you know, elicit a quote around that. That is a, is a story arc and that makes it so much easier for the journalist to focus on your new product.

Mickie Kennedy (18:36.023)
in the context of how it transformed this one business. And, you know, a lot of times we approach press releases with a very sort of, you know, greedy outlook. We want to sell more, but we don't look at it as, there's a busy journalist who's a gatekeeper and they're probably their biggest asset is our audience. And so they have to decide, is this announcement newsworthy enough?

that it will either entertain or educate or even delight their audience. And so, what could you add to your press release that would do that? Sometimes numbers or data, going back to logistics software, sharing that 63 % of new transportation companies fell in the first five years because they don't achieve profitability. That shows the stakes of why your product or solution is important.

And so, you know, just taking data that's already out there is, one of the ways in which to do it. another way, and this is what I recommend to people who seem a little. Defeated they've tried a few press releases and nothing happened, or they've worked with a PR firm and spent 20 to $40,000 and not much happened. And, that's to do a survey, an industry survey. And, you know, it, it sounds daunting, but it really isn't. You're just going to ask.

anywhere from eight to 16 meaningful questions that are very timely things that people in your industry would want to know the answer to today. And you can look around and say, Hey, we're out of the pandemic. but you know, some people have their, how they work has changed. some people haven't gone back into the office or some people don't want to go back to the office and management is fighting tooth and nail to get them back in the office. Cause they don't know how to maintain a work culture.

you know, with a hybrid situation or people working from home. So, questions around that could be interesting. AI is really big. There are a lot of people scared about AI. So asking questions about how AI is impacting or the fears around that in your industry could be good, but there's also lots of specific questions that are going to be relevant for your industry only. And, you know, think about if you were at a trade show or conference, what is it you would love to share?

Mickie Kennedy (21:01.935)
or ask a colleague because you you you you've experienced something and you're wondering is this a trend or just our business that could be a type of question you could ask and often those are the best questions because the trade publications and people who cover your industry haven't really talked about it or else you would have noticed that and that's why you're asking others and so also brainstorm with your colleagues brainstorm

with your spouse, brainstorm with anybody that you know in your industry about what would be a great question to ask right now. And then when you get the results and you're gonna just create that survey in SurveyMonkey, you'll get a link. And the first thing people say is, don't have an audience. Well, that's the easy part. Just go and find an independent or small trade association in your industry. And believe me, there are many dozens. You don't even know that they're out there, but they are. Everyone knows the big ones.

They are not good candidates for this because they have their own PR team and they get media attention all the time. But, you know, like in the PR world, there's the big one, but there's also lots of really small ones and some that are midsize. One that's for, you know, PR firms with staff of up to 50 members would be a great candidate. I've worked with them in the past and you just send the link to them and say, Hey,

I've created this survey. I would love for you to send it to your members in exchange. I will mention you in a press release. I'll be issuing over the wire in coming weeks and they are going to get excited because this is an opportunity for them to get some exposure in the media and no one knows about them. So, you know, you're looking for at least a hundred responses and I do usually indicate that in the email, that we are looking for a hundred responses or more to be statistically relevant. And if we don't get that,

I go back to them and they'll usually do a push through social media or another email send to get that. But the great thing about the smaller trade associations are that the people that belong to them have a strong affinity and loyalty to them. And so they're much more likely when they get an appeal to do a survey to go and complete it. So that works out really well. You're look at the results from the survey and you're gonna figure out what's the biggest shocking thing here? What's the thing?

Mickie Kennedy (23:16.451)
that is going to elicit the biggest response, whether it's emotional or just curiosity. And you're gonna focus the press release on that, but you're gonna put all the questions and answers on a page on your website and build it out. Maybe add some data points or some quotes about specific questions. And maybe if you have room in the press release, you could mention one other, but you're really gonna focus on that one big surprise. You're gonna mention it's a survey.

There's going to be a link for people to look at all the results. You will have journalists that will go and look at that page and write articles about other questions that you didn't pick. because you picked the right question, you're to get the most earned media from that question that you focused on. You're going to provide the analysis and the press release of why the numbers swayed a particular way. If it was AI, 62 % of graphic designers are

fearful that they're going to be put out of their job in the next five years, could say, you know, my, my, take on it is that I don't think that that's going to happen, but I do think that those who don't learn to utilize AI as part of the graphic design process are going to be at a big disadvantage from those who do. And it makes you seem rational, but not, you know, alarmist. And, you know, it, it really elevates you and the whole survey will do that. When I coach people through this process.

The least we've ever had someone get is four articles written about them for earned media articles. And on average, it's usually eight to 14 articles. So it really does work and it's a no brainer. And this coming from someone who just said 97 % of press releases don't work. It's because you're doing the wrong press releases and you're looking at what your competitor is doing and they did a, a new hire press release. So you do a new hire press release and you're just

feeding the machine without any results.

Brent Peterson (25:09.907)
Alright, so say I'm an entrepreneur and I'm looking to launch a new app or a product that I'm developing. Would the best place to start to come to somebody like you or would I work on a story about that and then come to you with that or how would somebody go about starting that?

Mickie Kennedy (25:26.787)
Yeah, would. Right, so I would work on the story, you know what it is that you're going to announce the actual mechanics of writing a press release is pretty easy. We have templates on our website and samples, but the hard part is figuring out what to write, what's going to be newsworthy. And if you can sort of, you know, come up with a story angle for your product launch, ideally a use case study, you know, with.

Tangible numbers and data points that's going to go a long way towards satisfying that that sort of story arc Having an amazing quote so many people write quotes as if they're an afterthought and the quote should be a lot stronger Language than the rest of the press release the press release is going to be you know, they're not it's not Strong creative writing press releases. They're written from a very simple level usually an eighth grade reading level

But the quote is the one place that you want your language to sing. So if it's creative language, that's fine. It could also just be very concise. Like you've said something very profound and concise and in just one sentence, or sometimes you can do two, but strive for one sentence that just sings and is meaningful. If the journalist was to paraphrase what you said, you know, and then look at

the press release or the article they're working on, there would be a loss, an ache for like, wow, I said it so much better. And so really try to say something that's very strong with conviction and very concise, active verbs, all of that. But a great quote can save you because if a journalist is looking at two stories of equal newsworthiness, but one also has an amazing quote, they will gravitate to that one.

every time because they know that they can build a good article and at the heart of it will be an amazing quote where the other one they can still build an amazing article but at the heart of it is a mediocre quote and so that's that's one way to make sure that they they pick you when they are choosing you know press releases of of equal strength newsworthiness.

Brent Peterson (27:39.63)
I have a blog that gets now, I get a lot of requests for press releases or I get a lot of emails that say, you publish this? And I usually rewrite it. Is the expectation for a press release to be released as is or is the expectation that you can rewrite it?

Mickie Kennedy (28:00.943)
So when the press release gets published as is, it's a failure. That's when we get into the area of syndication and copying, pasting a press release and putting it on a blog. It doesn't really help you. Google knows that it's the press release. It knows it's duplicate content. It doesn't really benefit you. I mean, if there is a real readership on that blog, yeah, the people that do encounter it are,

you know, potentially they could work with you. So that's a benefit. But you know, what we're really looking for is someone rewriting it and sort of, you know, breaking it down and turning it into an article. It doesn't have to be completely transformed, but we really are looking for someone to create a new headline, you know, create a new opening, you know, really.

really turn it into their own content. And that serves the blogger better because they have original content now and the search engine is going to be more favorable of that. And it's going to serve them as well because they're going to get the SEO benefit of that.

Brent Peterson (29:08.558)
Okay, good, so I'm doing it right. Mickey, we have a few minutes left. What kind of, going into the fourth quarter and knowing that maybe a lot of entrepreneurs have a product or a retail, ETL business, is it favorable going into Black Friday, Cyber Monday to do press releases going up to that or is that just a super expensive time to try to do something?

Mickie Kennedy (29:10.828)
Absolutely.

Mickie Kennedy (29:38.233)
The media is always looking for stories. so I feel like during the, you know, leading up to black Friday, there is a lot of buzz about sales and stuff, specials and things like that. but I, I wouldn't discount it and say it's bad. you know, used to everybody chose Monday as the day to distribute their press release. And after a while, Monday became the worst day to send a press release today. It's Tuesday.

because everybody who learned Monday was bad started sitting on Tuesday. Now Monday is a pretty good day to send press releases. So it's kind of hard to say and to second guess when to send stuff, but just realize publicly traded companies release bad news Fridays after 5pm because they hope that no one will notice. And every Monday morning that bad news is on the front page of all your business publications and newspapers.

So you're really not fooling anyone. And so I say, if you have news that needs to come out, and you're worried about how black Friday indicates it, then don't do it the week before. And, know, maybe don't do it, this, know, usually it's cyber Monday after that, maybe not the week after that. but I would also say you're probably not going to hurt yourself either way. And if enough people are doing the same and avoiding it,

You're probably hurting yourself by not sending at a time when the competition is low and you're more likely to get picked up. it used to be the journalists were expected to write two to four articles a week. and today with the, you know, the, the, the, the, situation with a lot of newspapers and online, content creators is that they're often expected to do one to three articles a day. And so.

You know, they're looking for stories at all times. And so if, a lot of people are avoiding a time that could be a window for you to get an advantage over someone else. I can't tell, you know, how it works out from time to time. but you know, there are, there are, opportunities, you know, every day and, know, the bigger picture is just to have something that's newsworthy and to sort of focus on something that's a little more strategic than what everybody else is releasing.

Brent Peterson (32:06.476)
Mickey, we have a few minutes left and as I close out, I give everybody a chance to do a shameless plug about anything they'd like. What would you like to plug today?

Mickie Kennedy (32:16.129)
Right. So I've talked a lot about strategic press releases and, you know, I mentioned the survey, and you know, this, this, you know, building a story arc into your press release. have a free masterclass that goes into all the strategic types of press releases I see that are working. And I make it available completely free. my goal is to have people do more meaningful press releases and more strategic press releases, and they will get more of that earned media.

and be able to stay longer with PR. And that is at ereleases.com slash plan, P-L-A-N. And again, it's completely free. It's about an hour long video with some accompanying materials. I made it an hour because the last class I bought, I logged in and saw 40 hours of videos and I just, I never went back. And so I was like, I wanted to make this a little more digestible in the age of TikTok and YouTube shorts and things like that. So.

just under an hour and anybody who goes through that, even if you had zero PR experience, it will give you the tools to do an audit of your business and determine strategic ideas like the survey that you could actually do that would make meaningful results and you're more likely to succeed. And that being said, you should do a PR campaign of six to eight releases.

Never judge PR with one press release, especially if it's one that you had AI write you or one that you just came up with because you saw a competitor to do something similar. The truth is AI has been trained on the 97 % of press releases that fail. So, you know, work on the strategic types of releases. You can lean on AI to actually write, but make sure you know what you want it to write about, what you want it to include and you know, really

lean on it and try to get several options. I break it down by focus on the headline, give me 10 options, give me three opening paragraphs to compare and you can get some good results out of it. but really don't ever go to AI and say, write a release on this company. Cause it will just write a general press release that is ineffective. And again, that free masterclass, ereleases.com slash plan. And I look forward to.

Mickie Kennedy (34:42.149)
people learning a little bit more about PR and the opportunities that exist there.

Brent Peterson (34:46.871)
Yeah, it's been a super interesting conversation. I'll make sure I get the links into the show notes and how can they contact you if they want to get in touch with you directly.

Mickie Kennedy (34:55.833)
Sure, so the website's eReleases.com. We have contact on the website, email, phone number and chat. All of our social media is on the lower right and that's my direct LinkedIn. That's the best way to reach me personally. But feel free to interact with my staff. There's no sales people. They're all editors and they're all, they all have permission to say the truth that, you whether we feel you're a good fit or

maybe barking up the wrong tree. So, we, we help people every day do their first PR and their first PR campaign. And we really believe in it because getting earned media is a huge credibility boost. It is, almost like an implied endorsement when a journalist writes about you. And it really does create this, signal of trust and it makes it easier to convert. And it also makes your existing customers stick around longer and

remain more loyal.

Brent Peterson (35:57.314)
great. Kenji, the founder of eReleases. Thank you so much for being here today.

Mickie Kennedy (36:01.859)
Thanks for having me.

Brent Peterson (36:05.592)
Alright, went great, thank you. My headphones died halfway, so that didn't help. Good, yeah.

Mickie Kennedy (36:08.239)
Welcome.

Mickie Kennedy (36:13.657)
for it.

Mickie Kennedy (36:18.723)
I love the colors of your shirt.

I like colors as you can tell.

Mickie Kennedy (36:46.863)
Well, these glasses became my signature. three years ago, I got them for pride and it's right when I got some headshots. And then after pride, I'd go on to a podcast in July or August and they go, you don't have the glasses. I was like, and so it's like, I could get new headshots, but people really liked the glasses. So was like, I think I'm just gonna discover, become my thing.

Mickie Kennedy (37:52.943)
Yeah, that would be great.

Mickie Kennedy (38:03.257)
Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I've learned. I've never made the mistake, but I am aware of reverse side.

Mickie Kennedy (38:22.255)
Sounds good. You too, take care.